SaccoV
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Point brought up by Packalum44 in another thread that I'm transferring to a new one because it's high time we discussed the issue of our coach's ability to do his job. I'll begin with a few points of my own, give a grade at the end of each point and attempt not to be didactic:
1) Player rotation -- I have had questions about Sid's rotation of players or selection of players at various times throughout the season. In all fairness, I think certain guys have received playing time who should not have (i.e. C.J. Williams as a consistent starter). Overall, I believe that Sidney is constantly using an NBA-style of rotation for two reasons: (1) to keep key players fresher for conference play, and (2) to maximize the talent available to him. Argue with the first point if you would like. The second one seems to make more sense, and to exemplify, I'll focus on our PGs.
A) Julius Mays -- Good shooter, but limited on the drive and has trouble breaking even the easiest full-court press. Dribbling is not a strong suit. Passing is iffy at times.
B) Javi Gonzalez -- Great leader, good dribbler, good shooter. Has trouble with the press but can create off the dribble. He should be doing more of this often to break up the zone defenses we are bound to see.
C) Farnold Degand -- Not a great leader, decent passer, excellent speed. Can hit the open shot but doesn't take many. Can easily break the press with his speed.
Any of these choices has legitimate blowback. Mays appeared lost during his stint (and there were times his teammates didn't help him at all when he needed it), but only received playing time to give some offensive time to Degand or Gonzalez.
Overall Grade for Sidney B-
Sid is making these choices because he knows he needs to exploit his matchups as best he can. Like a good card player, or chess player, you have to make sacrifices in order to win when it counts. I'm not sure if this strategy will work, but I think Lowe is playing the hand he's holding. We can discuss ad nauseum about players like Josh Davis and CJ Williams and Richard Howell because each player gives one dimension that we need, but brings some problems to the floor as well.
2) Strategy -- Whether or not the fouling at the end of the Florida game was a good strategy or not, Sid has been more willing to have his team run up-tempo at times, but (like Point #1) only in an attempt to break up the monotony of forcing the ball down to Tracy Smith on the offensive end. I guess in actuality the strategy at the end of the Florida game didn't work because Florida won; however, it was the first time I have seen a 70-footer go in for win in a college game (it sucks to be me, I guess). His rotations of players and the lack of a perceived cohesion in terms of lineups can be viewed two ways: (1) a misunderstanding of his talent pool, or (2) a clever attempt to show strength in numbers to future opponents. I again will lean toward the latter on this aspect of Sid's coaching.
Overall Grade -- B
We have a conference that is tough to create complete mismatches, especially for a less-talented team (and I think we have an under-talented team with respect to at least 4 of our conference opponents: UNC, Ga Tech, Wake Forest, and Duke). As a wild card, I think Sid is intentionally playing multiple lineups as a smokescreen. Again, it is too early to determine if this strategy is working. Sid gets a 'B' from me because this does lend some credence to the thesis that Sid isn't a good evaluator of his own talent. Given this conundrum, I think Sid is planting the seed to perhaps steal an additional conference win, which could make the difference in terms of post-season tournament play for this team. Also, we should expect a slight amount of squeamishness with Sid as older players in his previous three seasons turned out to lack certain intangibles which he perhaps took for granted, i.e. a willingness to win through self-sacrifice; a resilient nature to battle through bad breaks, etc.
3) In-game situations -- Sid and his staff have shown marked improvement in this area since his arrival three seasons ago. Although two losses this season have come in the last possession, the second half has been State's half (Florida and Wake Forest are perhaps the exceptions for this season) as they have scored 80 more points during 2nd half play this season (516 vs. 436 in the 1st half). Although many posters and fans have issues with rotations and specific in-game calls (fouling Florida, for example), most of the in-game decisions have worked. Tracy Smith has been the key to the offensive sets, and the players are pretty cognizant of getting him the ball on each possession. As Smith has been double and triple-teamed, the outside shots have opened up, and the players have been mediocre (other than Wood over the last four games) at hitting those shots when taken.
Overall Grade -- A-
Sid deserves credit for improving his in-game and half time adjustments. Arizona, UNCG, Marquette and Elon are good examples where Sid's half time adjustments were correct, and his team responded with good halves of basketball. Wake Forest and perhaps Florida were examples of not-so-great adjustments on the head coach, and again this is debatable.
IMO, Sid is NOT a "below-average" coach even in his 4th year. He has made some mistakes, two of the team's losses this season came a last-second shot. If those shots don't fall, they're 11-3, or 12-2, and I don't think many are arguing about Sid's coaching ability. I know that this "analysis" I've presented is far from "factually determined"; therefore, it was meant as a means to focus the debate on his coaching skill in one spot, and to avoid the insertion of "He's a terrible coach" in threads not exactly designed for it. I'm a Sid defender but I'm not necessarily convinced that Sid is capable of bringing this school back to "national prominence." For his 4 seasons at NC State, Sid has been good. Not great, but good. He may be the product of an incompetent AD, but he's doing a good job in his 4th season. I expect the railing to come forthwith.
VaWolf82
Administrator
Posted 6 months ago
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Back in April, we had a number of nasty threads discussing this topic. Play nice or I will close this thread.
Wulfpack
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I think he still has a lot to learn. We keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Good recruiter, but not a good coach. If he were fired today, do you think there would be a bunch of programs rushing toward him? No way. If you need objective evidence, look no further than his record in league play. I don't see that improving by any significant margin this year. Maybe next year, we'll see.
GApack04
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I would say SL is average on his best days and well below average on his worst. I think even the biggest Lowe haters around have to acknowledge there has been improvement with the in-game situations. My biggest beef is just the rotation issue, you have to have one established. I mean this isn't like the UNX issue a few years ago when some of the talking heads were bashing Roy earlier in the year because he was playing too many guys. At least 99% of those guys were McDonalds AA. IMO if you have below average talent you have to have a gimmick to beat the more talented teams. Now I'm not talking about the "weave and heave"- Please GOD NO!! Other gimmicks could include: Run and Gun with pressing, zone D, Defensive team that slows the pace, or simply just be better prepared than the other team. I'm just not seeing those things playing out. I think we pound it in to Tracy and try to run from time to time to mix it up. I think that works against less talented teams, but I am really interested to see what happens in ACC play.
With all that said I give Sid a C grade overall
tractor57
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I tend toward C+ myself (with C- the last two years). In game adjustments seem on par or better than most, recruiting (as defined by the players he has recruited and played probably C- with a pretty good looking future). He has grown in the job but some of that might have been dictated by the available personnel.
I remember when he was first named the general view here is it would take 5 years to completely "right the ship". Is he on track with that? Good question. I see progress and I see NO reason to search for a new coach until the fundamental issues in the athletics program are addressed. Should we expect Not just the AD but the whole mindset - which leads one to the Chancellor and the BOT. Currently bigger issues there so I don't see any radical changes in athletics for a while.
Rick
Moderator
Posted 6 months ago
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I would give him a D and the only reason it is not an F is because his team is finally playing hard.
His player rotations are nuts.
His in game adjustments are OK. I used to think this was a strong suit of his but I am not seeing it a lot this year.
His recruiting has been average at best.
His player development has been luke warm.
His team defense is mediocre.
Heck it took him four years to get his team to play hard.
How can you give a coach, who'e team was picked to finish last (and is living up to that prediction so far) any grade above a D is mind boggling to me.
IMO he has work to do to get to average.
PackMan97
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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It comes down to simple W's and L's. That's the easiest and best way to measure a coach.
Thinkpack17
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I give him a C+. If we were judging on a curve for experience that would get bumped to a B. His defensive schemes are pretty good, and his half time adjustments are also good. Recruiting is above average. I really don't know what he says in those living rooms to get mothers to love him, but he needs to keep doing it. He obviously needs to get his teams to close out games. Closing out games is all about coaching, blowing that lead at Vtech last year represents a coaching meltdown. He needs to stop acting like a rookie in crunch time.
I'd also love to see an NC State coach go to bat for his players and really get on a ref. It's like we are too good to do that. Like we'll let Roy, Gary and Coach K stoop to those tactics but we are above it. F that....it obviously works.
choppack1
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I'm hoping that Sidney is able to keep on getting kids like Harrow and that his key recruits will qualify and/or keep their commitments.
Strenghts
*He's potentially an excellent recruiter - identifying good prospects early on in the process.
*He has definitely shown some improvement in areas, specifically defense, increasing the overall athleticism of the team and this year the rebounding has taken a giant step forward.
Weaknesses
*He seems to struggle in preparing and motivating his team.
*His overall record is horrid. If you look at his ACC record and NBA record, well, let's just say it's hard to conclude that he's even a competent coach.
*I'm not sure about his teams overall conditioning and/or practices. In a word, too often, we lack focus..unfortunately, I think this may be a reflection of the Coach.
Overall
In college basketball, you can use talent to mask a lot of deficiencies. The good news is that he seems to realize the effort the college game requires - maybe he just hasn't been able to assemble the talent he needs yet to be effective. And I do believe it's possible that he can recruit well enough to assemble that talent.
We'll see - I certainly haven't written him off yet. I don't think he's a great coach right now and he may never be one. Like I said, in college basketball, you don't have to be the best X and O guy or best "manager" to succeed.
ncsufan13
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Grade wise? He gets an F. Worst coach in the ACC.
sautz
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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All you have to do is look at his win-loss percentage. he had about 5 years in the NBA and 3.5 as a college coach. He isn't even sniffing mediocrity. You can cry lack of talented players all you want but at some point, whether it be 9 years, 19 years, or 39 years you have to take a look at the resume and blame it on the coach.
fullmoon1
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Good post, I may not agree with it totally but I respect it because you backed up your opinions well. I think Sid is a slightly above average coach. I think Javi is a testament to player development. Howell does not seem to be playing to his full potential yet but he is steadily improving. I can kinda see what Sid is at least aiming for this year. All in all I would say Sid is not a below average coach. I think he is a good maybe slightly above average. I am most impressed with the adjustments at halftime. I think sid is doing more with the players he has then many coaches could do. I still have a liittle optimism left for the season. I have a deep appreciation for Sid's poise, humility and honesty in press conferences after listening to Roy brag and whine after a loss. I give Sid an A on personality. Calling Sid the worst coach in the conference is a little harsh given we have only played one conference game.
Clarksa
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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- Roy looked like a "below average coach" last night without a top flight PG.
- Spurrier looks like a "below average coach" without a top flight QB.
I am convinced now more than ever if you don't have either one, your team won't win championships. I you have a decent one, then you can make the post season.
GoldenChain
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I would say a C. Hopefully he's showing signs of learning how to handle things at the college level. The games we would have lost by 12 last year we are losing by 2 this year.
As far as the rotation thing, I'm hoping that this settles down once conference play starts. CJ played less the last game and Degand played more. Remember Degand got a late start so he's just now beginning to get up to speed.
Same with the frosh/sophs. Sid needed to play them enough to see what they would do in real game situations. He should be getting a handle on that now. One good game or one bad game has to be averaged in.
fullmoon1
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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In my humble opinion the rest is up to the players but i think Sid has a decent plan.
Pack Mentality
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Acquiring and developing talent IS college coaching and cannot be separated from the X's and O's in the game. So these are his players, going to his practices, following his game plan. The wins and losses will let us know if he's a good coach. I generally don't consider 10th - 12th place in the ACC and not making any postseaon - much less the NCAA - a good coach. But apparently some disagree with that and are fine with those results.
66pack
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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SL is one of the worst coaches in a conference full of bad coaches.
VaWolf82
Administrator
Posted 6 months ago
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Random thoughts:
If you have to choose between "below-average" and "average" to describe your coach, then there are definite problems.
With 15 ACC wins in three years, it is hard to argue that Sid is an "above-average" coach.
So where does that leave State fans? WTNY.
Thinkpack17
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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"SL is one of the worst coaches in a conference full of bad coaches."
LOL...Damn.
If we finish near the bottom of the conference this year Lee needs to be looking at getting a new coach. If we underperform next year and we have a legitimate candidate...we need to pull the trigger.
GoldenChain
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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But apparently some disagree with that and are fine with those results.
Please quote where anyone has ever said that they are 'fine' with being 10-12 place and not making post-season play. This is why its hard to take ultra-naysayers seriously, broad generalizations and exagerations. I haven't read where anyone has said they are "fine" with this. Some have said they 'expect' this to be the result this year and anything more than that shows some progress. There are some that have posted that they have 'given up hope' on basketball after 20 seasons (but I'd beg to differ or else they wouldn't be posting on a forum about WP basketball). But that doesn't mean they are 'fine' with it.
Some of us just realize that a team that was last the previous season and lost 3 starters probably isn't going to make a quantum leap to 24 wins, top 4 in the conference, and an 8 seed in the NCAA tourney.
We can argue about the number of seasons it should take to get to 20+ wins in a regular season and top 1/3 in the conference but that isn't teh same as saying we're 'fine' with 10-12 wins and no postseason.
tractor57
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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VaWolf,
Point taken.
But on the other side I sure don't want the current leadership screwing up another coaching search.
Remember we are in this position BECASUE of that same leadership.
Maybe that means WTNY.
I do see some growth in Lowe's coaching and in the team's performance - not enough for sure but some growth.
tractor57
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Pack Mentality
I think you REALLY need to support your contention that anyone here is happy with the current results -
My goals:
1. win the ACC EVERY year
2. win a NC every 5 years
3. NO off court problems
but I realize this has never been done at State so I also expect to be disappointed more years than not. Nevermind the post Valvano era - this has NEVER happened.
Can you show quotes?
Clarksa
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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My goals:
1. win the ACC EVERY year
2. win a NC every 5 years
Seriously? Lofty goals there. Even UNC-CH and Duke can't live up to those goals. Maybe more realistic goals would be top in the 5 ACC every year, win an ACC Tournament once every five years, and a NC once every 10?
ncsufan13
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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^ I think it would be great to be in the top half of the ACC, contend for the ACC championship, and win home games against rivals every year.
tractor57
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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sure lofty goals and I don't expect to meet them often
but they are what they are
maybe I'm seriously deranged (actually no maybe here)
Ed89
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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College Basketball is about guard play and experience. When your 2 seniors are Dennis Horner and Farnold Degand, you are going to have problems. Horner, who is a Sendek recruit (not a prototypical Lowe player) - 6-8 who can shoot, but not run or play D and Degand, who has played about 1 full season of college basketball. Again, Horner and Degand are your seniors, you are going to have issues. Guard play, we have seen tremendous growth in Javi. Other than that, we've had none except for Engin Sid's first year.
I think next year will be the telling year. I think we'll surprise some folks this year. These guys are playing tough for 40 minutes, unlike what we've seen the last 2 years. At this point, his results have not been stellar, but I can see good things happening in the future.
Pack Mentality
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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I have not seen anybody say they are fine with 10th - 12th place finishes. I believe that constant excuses and WTNY talk while these results are happening is not the right way of dealing with a problem though. I believe a set goal should be in place. I did not call out any particular posters either. I'm sorry if you feel this was aimed at you.
At the end of the day, a coach is only as good as his record.
Pack Mentality
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Also, it is hard for me to see how anyone can say they think a good coach gives consistent last place finishes. I know it may not be intended but you have to admit that you can see how the dots can be connected by some to say they are fine with those results.
That's it. I know you're a State fan and aren't happy with the results. That was a tongue in cheek comment that may cause offense but wasn't inteded to.
tractor57
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Then why make the comment?
Pack Mentality
Member
Posted 6 months ago
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Because that is how I feel.