tjfoose1
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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It will cut you down as John Barleycorn.
I hope a least a few here get that.
VaWolf82
Administrator
Posted 1 month ago
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I’ll readily admit that I don’t know the in’s-and-out’s of our roster at the point when Chuck left, but my opinion of the talent that was on the field and not graduating was that it wasn’t all that bad.
I think that talent left by Amato was pretty thin...and I took the time to look at the facts before forming an opinion:
Plz2BStateFan
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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I preferred when SFN was nothing but stars and rainbows and we all had a common enemy in Lee Fowler!
Now we are eating ourselves alive!
Plz2B can has football season!
Statefan1998
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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That is good plz, I was thinking the same thing earlier. What is sad is that we are good fans that simply have not been rewarded. I'm and going to let the argument die and pray for a great season.
Oldwolf
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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There is another aspect of team play that injuries has on a team, regardless of depth.
Even if you have sufficient depth, when you have constant injuries, then you do not have any continuity in the team on the field. In the ACC kickoff in Raleigh last Friday, both Butch and Tom showed this from 2 different perspectives. Butch said that having a group of def. players that palyed together as a unit for such a long time made his D what it was. While on the other hand, State had to play something like 10 different units dutin the year on D.
While depth helps, when you are having to play a different set of players (regardless of how good they are), they do not get to gel as a unit when the unit is constantly changing.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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and I took the time to look at the facts before forming an opinion:
Next time I'll make sure to form a 2-page white paper on an issue before I dare to think for myself. Thanks for the tip, VA. ;)
BTW, by the looks of the 2007 class, we had a bottom-heavy team (young). I knew we were a "young" team (without doing a linear regression of the team, mind you!) so I've tried to not argue with that 'excuse'. It's valid. My question is what happened 4 years later. I understand what Plz is saying and that if you have 40% of your team on the DL, obviously you're not going to do as well as hoped. I also get at what OldWolf was saying about there being "other factors" with injuries. The most important I can think of is Nate Irving saying that he expects 100% of the guys around him. Without him physically on the field, those efforts are hindered.
I'm frustrated at the bad performance and frustrated at the constant beat of the 'but we are dealing with ____' comments, but if we're talking about talent levels, it seems like TOB's second season should have been his weakest. He should of had the fewest upperclassmen, if you are projecting that from beginning of 2007. TOB was 7-5 that season. To me, that proves TOB can do something, but I just don't know what. When you boil it down, TOB has a game-plan that he will stubbornly stick with (including personnel) until forced to do otherwise. Right now, he succeeds on occasions due to a hot-shot QB. Once Russell is gone, which coincidentally is about the same time as ‘Judgment Day’ for TOB (5 years), that’ll really tell me if TOB knows how to maintain an offense.
His refusal to get rid of Archer really knocked him down, IMO, on the defensive front. I’m still trying to fool myself that this is part of some grander plan to replace Archer with Tenuta (at the expense of the NC State fans).
packplantpath
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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Next time I'll make sure to form a 2-page white paper on an issue before I dare to think for myself.
Or, you could, you know, read the links posted in previous threads pointing out the facts. You said,
I’ll readily admit that I don’t know the in’s-and-out’s of our roster at the point when Chuck left, but my opinion of the talent that was on the field and not graduating was that it wasn’t all that bad.
It wasn't a week ago in the other football thread (the 18 pager) that I posted links to several of the posts written right here on SFN pointing out that you were wrong when you made the same statement the first time. The fact that you can come in and repeat the assertion that things were not that bad points to a serious problem listening to anybodies opinion except your own.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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OK, so you're real good at reading links to old articles, but not reading posts in front of you. I get it. Let me try again:
BTW, by the looks of the 2007 class, we had a bottom-heavy team (young). I knew we were a "young" team (without doing a linear regression of the team, mind you!) so I've tried to not argue with that 'excuse'. It's valid. My question is what happened 4 years later.
Young doesn't equate "no talent".
-----
BTW, since you brought it up, your links were about attrition damage in 2008, after TOB has already taken over. Don't sell me this BS like you "tried to put it out there was TOB had in 2007".
packplantpath
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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I don't remember which links I posted. A quick search through SFN yields tons about the state of our football roster and I picked a few. They all point out the same thing, our roster was A) not that good when amato left and B) got worse through attrition. I probably didn't go back far enough to get to 2007 because the problems were there in 2008. Plus, how do you look at that table and see young talent? Young, yes. Talent? Maybe. Practically everybody in that table are freshman, unproven 2 or 3 star players. Not exactly prime talent. We looked ok @ RB. Everywhere else was questionable since a 2 or 3 star player could turn out either way.
Maybe you haven't been reading SFN for long, I don't know, but anybody who read this blog would know what the football roster situation was like from 2005 to now.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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You start out...
It wasn't a week ago in the other football thread (the 18 pager) that I posted links to several of the posts written right here on SFN pointing out that you were wrong when you made the same statement the first time. The fact that you can come in and repeat the assertion that things were not that bad points to a serious problem listening to anybodies opinion except your own.
And you end...
I don't remember which links I posted.
Thank you for my laugh of the day.
Here is why I'm unsure about the talent issues you bring up, packplantpath. You are mentioning the star-rankings of recruits. Take a gander at Russell Wilson's grade: 2 stars. Now, RW is, by all accounts, an exceptional man so I understand this doesn't mean every recruit is a RW. At the same time, it means that you can't discount someone because they are a 2 star. Jamelle Eugene is another 2 star. Spencer, RW's go-to guy is a 3 star. Seems to me the biggest factor wasn't talent, it was youth. If that's the case, you can claim that in 2008 we had practically no seniors and so that rationalizes a poor record. However, we had a decent year in 2008. Then, in 2009 when we had a more experienced team, the excuse shifted from "youth" to "TOB has had so many injuries the past few years!" Eight knee surgeries in 2007 and 13 starters in 2008. I get it. I grant that it's sort of valid... the question is why TOB goes from (self-proclaiming) not having 8 knee surgeries his last 3 years at BC to going 4 years at NC State with injuries being such a big issue. At this point in time, it's not Amato's fault, it's not the facilities' fault, so is it the boogie man?
packplantpath
Member
Posted 1 month ago
#
Thank you for my laugh of the day.
No pride, the links is posted in the 18 pager about the attrition problem do exactly what I said they did. They point out that you saying the roster looked good when amato left was wrong. To confirm, I just went back to see which two I chose. They were about attrition from the 2005 and 2006 classes and it's impact on 2008. It didn't look good as VA's link shows, and it only got worse as the links on attrition show.
Here they are again.
Sure, stars are an inexact science. But, low star rankings, attrition, and injuries make a pretty strong case that things are in bad shape. One of the 3 could be dealt with. All 3 at once is a perfect storm.
acc 10k
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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Let's face it, we just think we experience more injuries then most. This is not the case, it happens with every program. It appears that we experience more, because we have no depth at any position.
Plz2BStateFan
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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Over the past 3 year we are one of the most injured teams in the nation. This isnt some BS, "OMG WE CANT WIN BECAUE WE HAVE INJURIES" excuse. Its a deal breaker situation. Everyone has injuries. We just have had 2 or 3 times as many as other teams.
Statefan1998
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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Where is the evidence of this? Perception is not always reality.
islandbreeze
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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I still say it's Todd Rice, the strength & conditioning coach.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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If you have all the injuries in the same positions, then I agree that it's a more valid excuse. You can't be expected to run every position 8 deep. But, if your starters are injured in 8 positions, it shouldn't be an end-game for those eight positions. Second string will be understandable worse, but they shouldn't completely suck.
Oldwolf
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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as I posted a bit ago - regardless of talent level, depth, whatever, constant injuries cause a loss in unit cohesivenes, both unc-ch and NC State's coaches expressed this from different sides of the injury issue.
As far as to the cause of the injuries, I have no clue to why it is so much, but one of the more devastating injuries was to NI and was not even football related.
VaWolf82
Administrator
Posted 1 month ago
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Young doesn't equate "no talent".
If you really looked, you would see that I also took the time to include Scout's evalution of their talent....which wasn't very good.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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If you really looked, you would see that I also took the time to include Scout's evalution of their talent....which wasn't very good.
And if you really looked, I also took the time to include examples of how Scout's rantings matched up with actual outcomes... which wasn't very good.
VaWolf82
Administrator
Posted 1 month ago
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And if you really looked, I also took the time to include examples of how Scout's rantings matched up with actual outcomes... which wasn't very good.
You don't know much about statistics do you? Three cherry-picked examples doesn't prove that Amato left alot of talent.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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I know enough about statistics to know that a Scout.com star rating isn't the deciding factor in level of talent and also doesn't explain why 4 years later, why we are (a) freaking out when a single player is off the field in a given position and (b) why we have entire areas of our team that are lacking (*cough* shifting players to DB). But, if you feel Scout.com always get's it right, I guess you have a good point.
islandbreeze
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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scout.com had non-existent player a few years ago listed.
Plz2BStateFan
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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I beleive Pitt message boards created a player. They kept talking about him so much that rival schools starting talking about him. Eventually scouting sites started to list him.
Was much humor.
Good golly oh molly holly do we need a football game to talk about.....
Statefan1998
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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What do you all of the following. This morning a UNC friend was on my case about the charges being drop for the three guys yesterday. I think TOB should suspend the 3/4 for the Western Carolina game and force Butch's hand on Quan Sturnivant. If he does not suspend him, it could be a blow to Carolina and we look like we take care of business. No one will ever remember that our guys were suspended for a warm-up game and theirs were suspended for LSU.
McPete
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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Statefan98,
do you really think the local media will put Butch's feet to the fire if he doesn't suspend Sturdivant? I doubt it.
VaWolf82
Administrator
Posted 1 month ago
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also doesn't explain why 4 years later..
I never said that it did. I was responding to your inaccurate summary of the talent that Amato left on the team.
NCStatePride
Member
Posted 1 month ago
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Inaccurate according to the subjective Scout.com star rating. Gotchya.
Great conversation here. Lots of good perspectives
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